Curse

pork soldier · Jul 18, 2007, 07:54 AM // 07:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

I understand you want more characters in the PS window. Sorry, that is simply not possible with the programming in Guild Wars. It's something we can look at with the new programming and the new engine for Guild Wars 2, but from all that I know, we cannot modify it for the current game.

Templates were also impossible, so were reconnects, pay-for-UAX and party search- but they're in the game because people asked for them.

Very simply: party search isn't good right now, it's harder to use the "better feature" to communicate enough useful info for trade or to describe what you need out of a party member. This makes the feature a worse option than spamming districts for all but the simplest of things. Don't get me wrong: for something very simple "GLF MONK" it's good - but for "Looking for vanq partner who can run the following hero bars: LoD/Infuse, 2x SF" it just doesn't work. Seriously, try to fit that sentence into the party search and see how much info you can convey, try it.

As far as trade, right now party search is generating more trade spam. People have their for sale message truncated to something useless and then spam the item again with a modified tag line. Party search also issues cross-district spam when an item is added. This doesn't really help me much:

Code:

"Party Search - WTS max gold r9 sundering celes"

The real irony here is that ArenaNet is obviously trying very hard to make the game better but disregarding the feedback that would enable them to do so more effectively. People have been asking for improvement to this feature since it was rolled out and no one has taken the time to talk to the community about it or act on the recommendations, do you guys really think that we're just complaining about this for nothing? We're asking about improvement to the feature because it's not very useful to us right now.

Here's a constructive suggestion to squeeze more out of what's there right now:

Add a new column for trade listings, Buy or Sell (color code each word, say buy = blue and sell = red, so you can tell the listings apart at a glance). If something is put into the party search trade section by someone shouting WTS then file it under sell - if it's a WTB then file it under buy. WTT, leave blank or something - make it distinct though and don't lump it in with something else.

Here's what you get out of this: you free up 4 characters and it's now possible to tell at a glance which type of transaction each person is looking for.

And, as always, more characters - but hey, that's impossible like reconnects and UAX right?

arcanemacabre · Jul 18, 2007, 08:03 AM // 08:03

I just want to say, nice try Anet. Great idea, implemented very poorly. The intention was good and commendable, but really, just keep trying. More characters in PS or no forced messages to PS (maybe have them appear in chat & PS, rather than just the PS).

Xanthar · Jul 18, 2007, 08:05 AM // 08:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

What do you know of game development? How much do you understand the process of design, art creation, programming, and so forth?

That post has a very confrontative tone.

I do work for a commercial software vendor. Our policy when we mistakenly release a bugged feature - especially one that our users will go to lengths to avoid using - is to apologize in a very humble manner and then proceed to do an emergency rollback.

If we get enraged customers on the phone (this happens, just like bugs and broken features will happen), we will attempt to mollify them. We will tell them that we are very sorry and that we will rectify the problem that has upset them at the earliest possible time. When that time is depends on our schedule and in some cases, it'll never come. If at all possible, we try to give them a time estimate on when the fix will occur (non-critical bugs are fixed in regularly scheduled maintenance releases announced well beforehand).

That is how my employer handles customers that we want to buy our next product. Apparently ANet has a different strategy. I'm not saying it's unsuccessful - ANet has a crapload more customers than we can ever hope to have - but it certainly is different.

About the trade/party update, I think that the idea is excellent. The implementation of the feature is not very good though. Dropping the chat window truncation will suffice to make the "crossposting" feature invisible to those not watching the trade/party window.

Personally, I'm not really affected by the change, being that I never sell anything and only ever party with my guildies

Martin Alvito · Jul 18, 2007, 08:08 AM // 08:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bithor the Dog

As i said in my last post, you aint a dev you, pass it on. i can just imagine you going into the devs and shouting "THIS will be implemented" and the answer of "go clear your desk" being said in reply.

Come on, man, just because that's what someone needs to do doesn't mean they present it in such a fashion.

I'll tell you a little story. Once upon a time, before changing careers, I successfully managed a lending office for a Fortune 50 company. I was told by management to get out there and sell like no one has ever sold before in no uncertain terms.

Did I then go to my customers and say BUY MY PRODUCTS? No, I did not. I carefully persuaded them why it was in their own best interests to pursue our products, while admitting my own interests if asked (it doesn't pay to be out-and-out dishonest in sales).

Generally speaking, responsibilities and accountabilities are much clearer than the proper solution strategies for achieving those responsibilities. As a rule, it's best to communicate only the responsibilities to folks and let them figure out how to solve the problem for themselves. One trains them on how in general to solve problems, and then one lets them figure out for themselves the solutions for individual cases. (Intervening when necessary, of course.)

mr_groovy · Jul 18, 2007, 08:29 AM // 08:29

I don't know which thread get's more attention so I'll post this in my thread and in this one. Although the flaming is pretty hot in hur. :P

Ok I was thinking how we could solve the Char limit and came up with the following idea. Since all items in game are made out of a weapons skin, dam modifier, req, and 2 "magical" components. Can't we make the party search work like the template system? You can get a couple of pull down boxes:

WTB
WTS
WTT

Gold Weapon
Purple Weapon
Blue Weapon
Green Weapon
Weapon Mod

SHIELD
SWORD
AXE
BOW
SCYTHE
SPEAR
DAGGERS
WAND
FOCI
STAFF

15^50
15^Stance
15^enchanted
15 etc

REQ 8
REQ 9
REQ 10
REQ 11

Vamparic
Zealous
Icy
Firy
Ebon
Sundering 20/20
Sundering 19/20
etc

Health +30
Health +29
Armor +5
etc

These would then create a template code, which can be put in Party Search.

Second thought, There is already a system to make pvp items. Why not convert that with skins to party search. Or have a weapon code extractor.
Which reads out the characateristics of an item and puts the template code in to party search. There is allways away to make limits work

Martin Alvito · Jul 18, 2007, 08:38 AM // 08:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy Gus

It's fairly obvious that theres quite a large disconnect between the players & the developers, and it's fairly obvious that a competent CR team would have been a huge boon to this game.

These problems tend to grow broader with time, and we're 30 months past release here. The CR problem you suggest strikes me as more a problem of improper marketing after release than one of the CR team being "bad".

The CR team should be getting better direction/support from above on how to identify the community's desires to management such that resources can properly be allocated towards addressing the issues the players care about. They generally do a good job of handling the traditional PR aspects of such a position. I suspect that the information sources utliized in the decision-making process are biased (I've heard some convincing anecdotes regarding the influence of a few community members on the nerf process) and that the CR team is generally doing a pretty good job, but I've got little more than innuendo to back up this supposition.

The question is this: where is the problem located?

a) information-gathering level (CR team)
b) information-processing level (CR team and dev decision-makers)
c) decision-making level (devs)

My wager is that neither levels a) nor b) operate in the systematic fashions needed to get good information to level c). Hardly the fault of the CR team; that's a question of the policies/procedures they and the devs that process their input work under, and should be laid at management's doorstep.

Martin Alvito · Jul 18, 2007, 08:44 AM // 08:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by mr_groovy

Can't we make the party search work like the template system? You can get a couple of pull down boxes:

Another excellent potential solution which can build upon existing code. Probably less easy to implement server-side than individual districts, but a superior solution overall if the buyer can simply tab through the relevant postings as one could set up for play and shop at the same time.

Tydra · Jul 18, 2007, 08:52 AM // 08:52

i just want to say, the idea itself is probably okay ... but it feels like we are forced to use a system we just didn't want to use in the first place. and now you get pushed into the party search although you never wanted to use it, PLUS your message in the chat gets shorten too!

and either way, i just don't get it ... if we are using the trade channel anyways, like we are supposed to since its a TRADE channel, then why do we get forced to use the party search? what's the point in having the trade channel in that case?

things were better before this update. people that wanted to use the party search used it (as i did a few times as well), and ppl that didn't want to use it, just didn't.

plus, the way it's working now doesn't quite fit the description on the official GW site anyways:
"Whenever a party leader broadcasts "glf", "lfg", "lfp", "wtb", "wts", or "wtt" in All chat, that party will now be entered into Party Search automatically with that chat message used as the party's description."

here it's said this function counts for "All Chat" .... but it also fires in Trade Channel ... is this maybe just a bug? i think this is the first time i really hope for a bug

it would make a lot more sense to slap someone to the party window if they are spamming the All Chat than to punish people that use the Trade Channel in the first place.. c'mon, a while ago you told us people in All Chat spamming trades will be punished, but now it seems people that stick to the Trade Channel are getting a kick too?

Traveller · Jul 18, 2007, 09:16 AM // 09:16

Sure, I appreciate the effort A-Net did to try and boost the Party search function. And appreciate the lots of things they have added due player input. But it's just a fact that THIS thing here won't work this way with such a limited space on the party search text box.

Whatever you type will be cut in pieces if it's even a remotely long sentence - like good trade sentences usually are! Detailed! For example, I might want to sell my gemstone axe: "WTS req 11 Gemstone axe: Zealous, 15>50, +30 - make an offer!" and currently, get a minimal amount of that sentence through to the party search AND even trade chat! I don't want to start making vague WTS good Gemstone axe - descriptions either.

So PLEASE, A-Net, if you can't increase the space in party search box like Gaile said, at least let us write in trade chat a normal length trade announcement, like before. Keep the restriction in the party search window. Otherwise you have made selling in-game evern more impossible than it already is.

[edit] Eh, well, I guess one can always try to go around the WTS/WTB by using stuff like "selling" or "buying".

Traveller · Jul 18, 2007, 09:31 AM // 09:31

I want to add that the party search trade system is a good idea in principle. It allows us to see trade announcements from all districts, even different language-ones. I usually check the party trade to see if anyone is after anything - but the main handicap is the text box limitations. If we just could have more space, the functionability (is that even a word?) would be boosted up a great deal.

Gun Pierson · Jul 18, 2007, 10:27 AM // 10:27

feedback:
- I like the changes concerning the party window. I was getting bored with resizing the window each time.
- There has always been a problem with the trade functionality in this game and the last effort doesn't improve things imo. The best solution would indeed be an auction house but that seems out of the question.

my suggestions would be:
- Indeed make a trade district, this will bring a part of the playerbase together again.
- This also would work for a pug district, so people who wanne play with other people have more chance there to find a human group to play with

On a side note Gaile, Anet did a lot of good stuff to improve the game since release. The party/trade search however is not good enough to be used.
I also understand you're a bit pissed off. We all have those days at work, but tomorrow is another day. The devs must know the concerns on this topic.

TideSwayer · Jul 18, 2007, 10:46 AM // 10:46

The bottom line is that if you are going to have messages that are interchangeable among different windows/channels, all attributes of these messages have to remain intact or it simply won't work. This includes length. Party Search window needs message size equivalent to what we can type in the chat channel or you simply cannot make the messages interchangeable between the two. It's just pathetic to think otherwise, design otherwise, and support otherwise. The Party Search window has gone from barely-used to cluttered mess of unreadable intent basically overnight. I don't know which one is worse, honestly.

I love the idea though of having the messages interchangeable, once it gets implemented correctly. It's cool that my WTS/WTB stuff gets put in the Party Window and vice versa. Saves me the trouble of having to type it twice (which I got into the habit of doing).

Draikin · Jul 18, 2007, 10:58 AM // 10:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

I understand you want more characters in the PS window. Sorry, that is simply not possible with the programming in Guild Wars.

Then why are you forcing us to use it even though it's too limited to be of any use? You already knew the community's opinion about party search back during the discussions about trade spam, so that would mean the devs would have known that we didn't consider party search to be viable for trading unless the limited character problem was solved. Why then did Anet decide to implement this update?

Diddy bow · Jul 18, 2007, 11:05 AM // 11:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

I understand you want more characters in the PS window. Sorry, that is simply not possible with the programming in Guild Wars. It's something we can look at with the new programming and the new engine for Guild Wars 2, but from all that I know, we cannot modify it for the current game.

so introduced this think knowing its apparent uslessness for trading purposes, well thats intresting

.

So you do give us what we want somtimes, but somtimes you do things that makes everybody think wtf XD.

WinterSnowblind · Jul 18, 2007, 11:27 AM // 11:27

I can't believe people are complaining about this. No matter what they add in, people find a way to complain about it. I bet if Anet gave away free gold bars with Eye of the North, you guys would still find some way to whine about it. "It's not quite shiny enough".

Sure, it's kind of annoying that you can only fit in so many letters, but it's not that big a deal, it's still far easier to find people to trade with now, as everything up for trade is now listed in one place. It's easy to read and scroll through, instead of having to constantly scroll upwards in the trade window.

Great update, in my opinion.

Shadis · Jul 18, 2007, 11:39 AM // 11:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by WinterSnowblind

I can't believe people are complaining about this. No matter what they add in, people find a way to complain about it. I bet if Anet gave away free gold bars with Eye of the North, you guys would still find some way to whine about it. "It's not quite shiny enough".

Sure, it's kind of annoying that you can only fit in so many letters, but it's not that big a deal, it's still far easier to find people to trade with now, as everything up for trade is now listed in one place. It's easy to read and scroll through, instead of having to constantly scroll upwards in the trade window.

Great update, in my opinion.

Except the problem we have is that the Party Search Panel is a broken tool in its current form. There is not enough space. This was one of the first things said by various people when it was first introduced. We are baffled that they are promoting this thing when it so obviously needs attending to.

Yeah, that's a great tool they're trying to force us to use.

unbound00 · Jul 18, 2007, 12:45 PM // 12:45

omg people, this means more options for all of us
not happy? type something other than WTS and you are not bumped into party search
personally I loved this and go both ways, I type up a title for my sale to go into party search and then go to trade chat
-> WTS The Stonereaper 5k
-> WT[SELL] The Stonereaper:: 5k:: 20/20 curses / curses+1 20% / energy+5:: by storage

Wanna set a party that's too specific, don't use party search, if doesn't fit your needs at the moment. but it does fit the needs of 90% of the community that's pugging at that exact moment

There's any number of ways to avoid going into party search or to put it to good use and still fit your needs. Stop exagerating. I personally bet all of you will end up making good use of this new feature. Tell me you are nto going to take a peek into the party search when you are in Lion's Arch / Kainneg City / Kamadan, please, do tell me.

SilentAssassin · Jul 18, 2007, 12:47 PM // 12:47

this is an awesome idea

1) they need to adjust party discription length (imo its weird that they can't change this... I have some programming skills to and I know it doesn't look all that easy but still)
2) they need to give the ability to have more at the same time

if they do this then this is an awesome system no? then you can just scroll through what everyone is selling and see if you need something.

PS: I don't understand why so many are complaining,

You still can type: WT S, selling,.... if you need to type a longer description, wtf is your problem then, you can still use the old system but MANY ppl who are just selling gems, mini's, .... can use party window and will have an easier time selling.

I LOVE this idea, everything goes automated, with some adjustments this would just be perfect.

(these forums still haven't changed, still there are millions of little kids who cry when they don't get an icecream, grow up ppl, I feel sorry for the moderators and devs who need to read all this nonsense)

upier · Jul 18, 2007, 12:59 PM // 12:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcane_Penguin

It only cuts your trade message off if you use words that the filter uses (WTB, WTS, WTT, etc)
Just use the trade channel the way you would spam the all channel.

W T S: or W T B: won't get your message cut or posted in the search.

yep went from posting pinky WTS to posting pinky W T S.
I sure as hell will no be using the party search since it is useless.
I0'd rather just merch the few items that I get that are worth trading then bother with that piece of crap.

Cacheelma · Jul 18, 2007, 01:24 PM // 13:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by SilentAssassin

You still can type: WT S, selling,.... if you need to type a longer description, wtf is your problem then, you can still use the old system but MANY ppl who are just selling gems, mini's, .... can use party window and will have an easier time selling.

Then please tell me, what's the point of this change again EXACTLY?

So that we have an excuse to use WT S/W[T]S instead?

Imagine all people use those, and tell me what's the point of changing it in the first place?

To annoy us?